26 Responses to "Israel TV: Scientology is a cult and a medical, moral and social threat"
April 7, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Kook talk, huh? Why don’t you do urself a favour and go read through some of the posts? Unfortunately,you probably won’t because doing that could cost you thousands if you have to be sec check’d and cannot answer “no” truthfully when asked about if you’ve come across anti-scientology info, if you have had negative thoughts about L Ron (btw, did you know that L Ron’s own son changed his last name to dissociate himself from his father, and declared in court that 99% of his father’s public assertions were lies?), etc.
LMT: You are in a dangerous cult that was created by a liar who just wanted to get rich and was willing to stomp out anybody who got in his way. Fair Game is real and it still happens. Operation Freak Out happened. Operation Snow White happened. Scientologists are abused in the Sea Org. Families have been broken apart. Critics and journalists have been brutally harassed and framed for fictional crimes. The cult does use hypnosis-type techniques. The list goes on and on and on.
L Ron may have been a malevolent dick, but he was a genius. No doubt.
Those who protest for the cult’s reform are not all computer hackers. In fact, by this point, I would imagine that the hackers and prank callers and faxers could very well constitute a minority of active protesters. The people who are protesting by and large don’t particularly care about your beliefs. They are protesting because of the human rights abuses of the cult’s administration unto its members, its critics, journalists, and anyone (e.g., government officials) that have control over something that the cult admin has an interest in.
April 7, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Elron co-opted the vast majority of his techniques from Alistair Crowley, with whom he was a close associate during the early days of the OTO. Elron’s primary contribution was not genius, but an all-too-accurate assessment of the critical faculties of the average person.
April 7, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I’m sorry, what did you say? I was too busy being a threat to the very fabric of society to pay attention.
(By the way, Mr. Know-it-all, in all my years as a Scientologist, I’ve said and done whatever I want, to whoever I want in the Church, and no one has EVER sec checked me. I don’t even know anyone who has been. Maybe people were sec checked a lot back in ancient times like the 1970s, I dunno, but as far as it still happening now, it’s just more conspiracy kook talk.)
April 7, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Stoobs: Who was Crowley? Was he a psychologist or psychiatrist, by chance? I watched part of the leaked movie “The Profit”, and in it the person representing Hubbard was shown stealing the psychological research from a female researcher.
I just read that Hubbard ripped off this guy named Jack Parsons for some other stuff. I think Parsons had developed some of the basic ideas used in CoS, but can’t remember exactly. This was also depicted in “The Profit”.
April 7, 2008 at 7:51 pm
LMT:
First off, I don’t recall ever calling you personally a threat to the fabric of society—unless, of course, you’re holding an administrative position in a department such as OSA.
If you haven’t gone through of any of that stuff, then that’s very good. I hope that you haven’t. However, I’m not even sure that I can take your word that you haven’t as it has also been said by ex-members that Scientologists are trained and forced to lie about their experiences in the organization. Astra Woodcraft reported being forced to lie to father, telling him she is going to school everyday and that it is great, when really she was going to school for just a few hours a week and spending the rest of her time working like a dog in the Sea Org and studying Scientology materials. Other ex-Scns have also said that part of the training for some of the Scientologists that have PR-related positions is being taught how to lie. And I have a fair bit of confidence in these claims because if they were not true I figure that the CoS would have sued them, as that is apparently what Scientology is all about: suing its opponents into silence. Have you heard of these directives written by LRH: “The purpose of the lawsuit is to harass and discourage rather than to win”, “Suppressive Person Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.” These policies were written by the founder and highest person (”prophet”) of Scientology.
What about the CoS’s horrible history. They attempted to frame Paulette Cooper for 2 bomb threats (max. imprisonment: 15 years) and have her committed into a mental institution. In a later raid of CoS, documented plans entitled “Operation Freakout” were found which spelled out plans to have Cooper wiped out by having her incarcerated or committed–anything to shut her up.
What about Lisa McPherson? How she was killed by way of negligence and detainment by CoS? Languishing for 17 days in their captivity, as she became emaciated, serverely dehydrated, and ravaged by insects. She was removed from hospital care and it took the CoSers 17 days and her being within about an hour of her death before they thought “hey, maybe we should take her to someone who actually has a *real* understanding of human health”. And then, even given her extremely depleted condition, they passed a handful of nearby hospitals while driving about 40 minutes to a Scientologist doctor. How ETHICAL was that? How ethical was any of this?
What about the many people with serious depressive or psychotic conditions that CoS has prevented from using their medication, which in a number of occasions was followed by suicide and murders?
What about all of the many people who have left the CoS and have given independent and consistent reports of human rights abuses in the Sea Org (e.g., 100 hr work weeks, bad food, extremely low pay; entrapment within the organization), disconnection policy, filtering out of information contrary to the CoS’s aims, ….
What about how CoS has hired private investigators to follow, spy on, search through the trash of, and contact the associates of critics and journalists? John Sweeney and the BBC have extensive footage of them being followed.
What about how L. Ron Hubbard lied about pretty much everything in his life. His education, his life experiences, his military service, and on and on and on.
What about how CoS members deny Xenu when the OT writings detailing Xenu were obtained in court hearings and Scientology heads admitted that they were Scientology documents in court.
What about the CoS’s smear campaign against psychiatry? I love how they blame the field of psychiatry for many of the worst aspects of the holocaust. Yes, it’s in the timeless psychiatry handbook that psychiatrists are to do such things.
The CoS is so clearly a cult. It has a history peppered with enforced isolation of members from people and information critical of CoS, brutal harassment, intimidation, abuse, and framing of critics and journalists, medical quackery (which has been dangerous in a number of occasions), bait-and-switch marketing tactics, breaking, entering and stealing at government agencies in the US and internationally (e.g., Canada), unjust smear campaigning against psychiatry, inhumane working conditions (e.g., Sea Org), member detainment (Astra Woodcraft speaks of how she had to serve as a 24-hour guard, preventing a family from leaving), hypnotic mind-control techniques, and so much more.
How can you possibly defend CoS for this? This is not just stuff that is being made up. Much of it is on the public record, and all of it is corroborated by multiple consistent independent accounts given by ex-members who have not been sued by the most litigious cult to ever exist. Why is Scientology not suing the Woodcrafts? Why didn’t the sue the Lisa McPherson Trust? Why aren’t they suing Mark Bunker now? Why is the cult administration that is notorious for its litigiousness being so unlitigious against those who are making those most damning remarks against it?
April 7, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Why do you even need the CoS so much anyway? Why not join FreeZone? Is it the status you’ve attained in the organization through years of ladder climing? Is it that you could very well lose all of your Scientologist friends and family, which may constitute the lion’s share of your close social network? Is it that it has been so long since you have lived outside of Scientology that the task seems extremely overwhelming? Does the organization hold personal information about you that you fear they will release? Is it that you value the opinions of those in the organization so strongly that you are extremely loathe to lose their respect and kinship? Is it because you feel that you have already invested so much time and money in this project and so you are averse to having to abandon it? Is it because being a part of Scientology gives you a sense of great purpose?
If any of these are considerations of yours, then a few things:
1. There are people (e.g., the former Lisa McPherson trust people) that can help you.
2. Why would anybody want to be apart of an organization that would reject them and force their members to reject them if they left? And what kind of friends and family are those that would ditch someone for leaving their cultural organization?
3. Continuing to climb up a ladder that you’re halfway up but that is getting increasingly dangerous the further you go up is hardly better than getting off that latter and starting on a lower rung of a safer, healthier and more enrich other ladder.
4. There are plenty of great purposes in this world that do not come saddled with the baggage of CoS. There’s the pursuit of wisdom and mastery using practices such as mindfulness meditation and cognitive behavioural therapy. There is blogging, which is a vehicle for communicating to others about things that are important to you. There’s study. There’s pursuing a career in the social services. Travel. Actively contributing to charities. Teaching the young. On and on.
April 7, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Why do you keep preaching like someone on a religious mission yourself? I couldn’t possibly care less about any of that old news even if it were all true (and I don’t think it is). Either way, I just don’t care, sorry. If I was Catholic, I wouldn’t let controversial Papal decrees and pedo priests shake my faith either. Why would it?
Isolated acts of individual Scientologists do not reflect on the Church as a whole no matter how hard you try to spin it that way.
The burden of proof is on your kind, not mine. So far, the U.S. Government is not taking your quackspeak seriously. When Congress investigates Scientology, I’ll listen. Until then, it’s just one camp of internet nobodies having a pissing contest with the other.
April 7, 2008 at 8:20 pm
This isn’t individual Scientologists acting on their own. These are official CoS operations based on official CoS policies (e.g., Fair Game). And why don’t you think it’s true? Do you think the entire world is out to get Scientology? You think that his son just denounced his father and discredited everything his father said because he was miffed at him? Do you think his grandson Jaime DeWolf called him a conman just to get attention? Did the FBI fabricate their Operation Snow White and Operation Freakout documents? Did the BBC use PhotoShop to capture CoS spying on them? Is Fair Game not a writing of Hubbard? Did the Canadian government also lie about Operation Snow White? Is Israel TV just trying to get ratings? Is the German government simply a bunch of Neo-Nazi bigots who have a special vendetta with Scientology?
Are all of the REAL criminal findings against Scientology FAKE? Are the documents fake? The video footage? Are L Ron’s relatives just a bunch of disgruntled black sheep?
And the Catholic Church surely has a lot to answer for itself, as its problems were more than just isolated. They had a systemic component in that the Church was protecting the molesters. However, at least molesting wasn’t official church policy!
April 7, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Also, you say that when Congress gets active, you’ll start paying attention. Well, doesn’t the multiple FBI raids raise any suspicion on you? What about how CoS is not recognized as a religion in many countries. How many major organizations (e.g., Israel TV, the German government) have called it a dangerous cult?
April 7, 2008 at 8:40 pm
You can’t run away from facts little ms. Theta. They are the basis of truth, and they all point against your organization. You can’t just label it kook-talk and quackspeak. Plus, this isn’t how arguments work. You need to try and counter Ron’s arguments. You can’t just say he’s bent on a religious mission himself, or that it’s all kook-talk. It’s called an ad-hominen attack and it has no place in argumentation. Even in your short posts you sound strikingly reminiscent to countless videos of scientologists just skirting the argument at hand by attacking a person and calling them names. Name calling is for kindergarten children; grow up.
April 7, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Booclay:
It’s true. In so many of these videos the Scientologists predictably dodge the questions and try to turn the attention onto the protester/critic. They’ll ask “what are your crimes?”, “what do you do for a living?”, “don’t you have anything better to do”, or the like. If a person is protesting your organization and they are saying that your organization is a terrorist mafia human rights-abusing cult and citing example after example after example, in what world is it a good defense to leave the protester/critic’s points of protest completely unexamined and instead focus on the protester them self? Those who do this are clearly not interested in learning, honesty, ethics or justice.
If you do not want to have protesters picketing your organization and you think that they are misguided, then wouldn’t the best tactic be to show them how they are misguided? By failing to address the entire set of motivations for the picketing, and on top of this resorting to distracting and hoped-to-be hurtful ad-hominems, they’re only emboldening the protester and stepping into the stereotypes built by people like Dan Murnan and Mary DeMoss (I hope she really did blow). And, from what people like Tory Magoo have to say, apparently people like Murnan and DeMoss have acted directly in accordance with Scientology training on “handling” critics.
April 7, 2008 at 9:09 pm
LMT:
“I couldn’t possibly care less about any of that old news even if it were all true (and I don’t think it is)”
let me say that again
“(and I don’t think it is)”
Downstat biotch!
you supposed to never defend, remember. Did you forget how to fairgame? or did you just wake on the stupid side of bed?
how about something like:
“Those claims are lies! (bring up ad hom attacks against people who made the claims here) blah blah blah, scientology saves lives blah blah blah narcanon, blah blah human rights blah blah Hubbard blah blah and don’t forget to mention how much Scientology has helped you be a fag.”
April 7, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Little Miss Theta:
I’m just curious, are you writing on your own personal accord, or are you acting on the behalf of OSA? (For those who do not know, OSA, or the Office of Special Affairs, is the Cult of Scientology’s personal mafia; this is the organization that deploys private investigators on critics, protesters and journalists, engage in covert operations such as government infiltrations, the framing of critics for fictitious crimes, and so forth).
April 7, 2008 at 10:36 pm
“little miss theta”, you shouldn’t be here. Looking at anti-scientology material will result in the requirment to pay for more auditing sessions. What org are you with? I will report to them immediatly.
April 7, 2008 at 11:22 pm
copypasta from the scieno:
(which you apparently do!)
that makes your whole argument invalid. stop throwing mud and acting like a child and taunting.
p.s. i didn’t pay arm + leg + first born for “religion”, so why are you?
April 8, 2008 at 12:45 am
I like how this guy advertised on one of the anonymous boards to get opinions on how to properly “handle” us. Things like Anonymous rarely bother me as a Scientologist. There are dozens of anti-Catholic websites, calling it a cult, Mary/idol worshippers, etc. They discuss how priests are pedophiles and how churches attempted to cover up these crimes. They talk about the inquisition and many other horrible parts of Catholicism’s past. Does this devalue Catholicism as a religion? No. Inquisitions were seen not as individual efforts, but Church endorsed events. Yes, people make mistakes, including church leaders. It only proves that we must strive to goodness and the betterment of man. There are thousands of people that leave a religion because of bad experiences or beliefs they didn’t agree with. I have seen many ex-Catholic, ex-Muslim, ex-whatever websites. Does that devalue the religion to its practitioners? No. I’m sorry that people have had horrible experiences in Scientology, however that doesn’t mean that my wins are fake, or that it’s all pretend for us. People make individual choices, so the argument that “i won’t pay for this, or i wouldn’t believe in that” doesn’t really work. It’s called freedom of religion.
Also, be aware that the Church of Scientology does not control what we read. Many of us are well aware of your Anonymous websites, including Enturbulation. Many of us are aware of your plans and arguments against Scientology. We like to know both sides of an argument. So people that you may think are Anons may very well be Scientologists trying to gain knowledge from both sides of the fence. Scientology is about Knowledge. It is about Freedom. See you all on the 12th 
Oh and Crowley was an Occultist (many Anons incorrectly refer to him as a Satanist, but that is clearly wrong if you read any of Crowley’s actual works. Religion is one of my interests, so I know that he wasn’t a Satanist, even if he referred to himself as “the beast”. He founded a religion called Thelema, which has nothing to do with Satanism). Trust me when I say we Scientologists are not the idiots that you think we are, and that we are more aware of Anonymous activities than you may think as well.
April 8, 2008 at 7:43 am
ThetaGuy:
Here’s the thing. Scientology’s criminal activities continue to happen NOW! As protesters have been saying for quite some time now, this protest is not about religion, it’s about terrorist mafia human rights-abusing anti-free-speech activities by the adminstration of the cult in the very recent past and today. If all of this stuff was 70 years ago and the organization had had a generally sparkling record since then there would be no 2008 protests.
April 8, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Thetaguy ARC and Little miss theta: I will look forward to the day when your opinions are your own instead of the revisionist history fed to you by the cult to which you belong. I hope your experience in the cult has not led to family disconnection for you personally like it has to so many other current and former members…much of which is very well documented. As you know, 12 April is Operation Reconnect, I hope you take a moment on that day to remember any people you know who have been harmed by the cult’s policy of disconnection…I’m quite sure you would be aware of some.
Anon- good job this thread.
April 8, 2008 at 1:48 pm
my thoughts on this forum and everywhere are my own thoughts. The Church of Scientology does not tell its members what to think. We choose to believe what we do and believe and practice. The great thing about well versed in religious history and just varying views in general on religion is that I have seen MANY anti-(insert religion here) groups and websites, and they all claim the same things, like breaking up families, worshipping idols, practicing “idiotic” things, etc. There are MANY websites focusing on the heresies of the Catholic Church, bad CURRENT practices in relation to the priest sex coverups, etc. And yet the practitioners of Catholicism choose to stay in it, and value the experience they have. The same with Scientology. YES, people have had bad experiences in Scientology. I’m sure some people choose to disconnect from someone that is antagonistic to their religion. However this is NOT the majority of people, and the activities of Anonymous will not devalue our experiences and beliefs, in the same way that the activities of anti-Catholics (I always use Catholicism as an example b/c it is readily known by many people) will not hinder most Catholics.
April 8, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Theta Guy:
This is all well and fine. I personally am not trying to infringe upon your freedom to take part in a community that you value, so long as your acts are not infringing upon the rights of others and such. All I am trying to do is draw attention to the abusive unlawful unethical and horribly inhumane things that have recently and are currently going on in Scientology. I’m talking about the Sea Org, Fair Game, harassment and private investigation of critics, obstructing the psychiatric treatment of people who could strongly benefit from it or who need it in order to be safe to themselves and others, smear campaigning psychiatry, brainwashing at minimum some Scientologists (e.g., people like Dan Murnan who have shown clear signs of believing that if a person is critical of Scientology, they *must* be a criminal), forced disconnection, etc. I would also like to see the tax exempt status removed as an organization with the recent history that Scientology has and that charges and exploits so many of its members like Scietnology does does not deserve to be treated on par with religious and charity organizations.
April 12, 2008 at 11:58 pm
Glad to see people taking on $cientology. I have an acquaintance who got death threats from the Co$ years ago, simply for doing his part in making sure that people could decide for themselves by having the data available. Did you know that the Co$ built their own internet content filter to prevent new converts from finding information critical of $cientology? My acquaintance was quite proud that his name was one of the strings that would block a page.
The only thing that I like about $cientologists is their opposition to psychologists and psychiatrists. Most psychologists and psychiatrists are dangerous and ignorant people who hurt their clients rather than help them. The few intelligent ones I’ve met lament the state of the field in general. I have had too many friends who have been subjected to torture, both mental and physical, by the therapy establishment. But $cientologists seem to oppose psychologists because THEY want to play that role. I’d be interested in knowing the Free Zoner perspective.
April 13, 2008 at 12:34 am
Baldy:
Greetings.
Death threats, you say. Wow. I mean, I’m not hugely surprised. But still.
Yes, I’m familiar with their net nanny program. That is quite an honour for your friend, definitely. Do congratulate him for me. I’m working on attaining that sought after status myself 
I’m not sure I agree with your stance on psychiatry and clinical psych, though. I’m not gonna say that the fields are perfect and without their problems. But I don’t know if I’d go so far as you have gone. I eagerly welcome you, if you would like to, to go into why you are so against them. I think we could agree, though, that these fields are permanently in a tough position and no matter what they do, their decisions will have significant and easily criticized consequences. These people are charged with treating and handling people with disorders that could lead them to really hurt people. How do you deal with that? If they just let them go free, they would be criticized for putting Potential Trouble Sources (to use Scientology lingo) on the street where they pose a real danger to others. If they locked them up, then they’re inhumane monsters. They use the cognitive and behaviourally oriented therapies they have, the medications, and other approaches like ECT (which, I hear, does have success, but I don’t know much about it and so should do some more reading), plus there are community services like support groups for people with schizophrenia and such, etc.
My thinking on this matter is very much in its infancy, and my knowledge on the issues is moderate at best. But it seems that if we are going to go pointing accusatory fingers at psychiatry and clinical psychology, we should be able to do a few things: 1) appreciate the tough situation they’re in and how any decision they make will have important consequences that will have easily opposable drawbacks; 2) If we’re going to call them dangerous, ignorant, evil, whatever, we should be able to point out more humane but practical courses of action.
April 13, 2008 at 12:38 am
A few more points to add to the last post:
There is over-medication in psychiatry. Two reasons for this:
1) psychiatrists get paid more for doing less to prescribe versus offering psychotherapy;
2) psychiatrists are in demand; they need to be able to get in as many patients as possible because there are often waiting lists. Since medication can produce quicker short term results, it is often a good thing to go to at the beginning. However, given that mental health professionals also include clinical psychologists, social workers, occupational therapists, and so on, and given that the different professionals collaborate with each other, I imagine that the psychiatrist expects (or at minimum recommends and hopes) that the patient will also get psychotherapy from a clin. psych, OT, or SW, and will often help them get in touch with one of these.
April 7, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Oh, so now we’re “a threat to the very fabric of society”? ROTFLMAO.
The anti-Scientology conspiracy-theory obsessives have totally lost all touch with reality at this point. Seriously.
It’s frightening but fascinating to watch you people burn yourselves out over your constant need to be RIGHT and to make Scientology look wrong even it if means spending your whole life on the internet (which you apparently do!)
I love it. Please keep it up, because you and Glosslip are hurting no one’s cause but your own with such extremist kook-talk.